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Wrath of God

[And above all, I believe the greatest demonstration of the wrath of God ever given was given on Calvary’s cross. God hates so...so deeply sin that He actually allowed His own Son to be put to death. The greatest manifestation of the wrath of God. He poured out His fury on His own beloved Son. He would not hold it back even from His own Son. That’s how He hated sin. - John MacArthur]

Paul made his thesis statement in verses 16-17, now to the body of the work.

In verse 18, Paul starts off with WHAT? The WRATH OF GOD? Not the Love, Mercy, or Grace of God but the WRATH? Why????

I believe that Paul is proceeding in logical order. First, you explain why the Gospel is needed. Paul is seeking to establish the fact that all men justly deserve the consequences of the eternal wrath of God. Then you offer God's solution.

In a more basic example - this is how sales and advertising work - you identify a need, make people aware of this need, and then you provide the solution (product). If people do not think they need the product - chances of a sale are very slim.

God's Wrath is not an easy topic, and many ministers/churches today shy away from it. Even Bob Deffingbaugh does not spend a whole lot of time on it here in Romans - but he has a separate link that is exclusively devoted to God's Wrath.
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=254

My belief is that to charectirize God by any one attribute is a mistake. To the extant that it is revealed - the Bible discloses who God is and his attributes. There are many attributes of God. By looking and studying them all, one can get a more complete picture of God and not just the area that you identify with, desire for yourself, or wish for the world. We are not one dimensional as humans - how much more so God?

ATTRIBUTES of GOD
Power, Goodness, Wisdom, Holiness, Righteousness, Wrath, Grace, Sovereignty, Nearness, Immutability, Joy, Invisibility, Forgiving, Truth, Love, and Glory.
http://www.bible.org/series.asp?series_id=90

John MacArthur sermon on "The Wrath of God" (long)
http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/45-9.htm

Both these are shorter with the first being an easier read.
http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2652

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/the_wrath_of_god_1.html#Catechism

Some excerpts from John MacArthur's sermon on "THE WRATH OF GOD"
======================================================
"...The gospel message begins with a statement about the wrath of God. Frankly that’s diametrically opposed to most of our evangelistic technique. Most of our con­temporary evangelism purposely avoids that theme. We talk about love and we talk about happiness and we talk about abundant living and we talk about forgiveness and we talk about joy, we talk about peace. And we offer people all of those things and ask them if they wouldn’t like to have all of those things...."

"..From Paul’s perspective, fear becomes the first pressure applied to evil men. Let them know about the wrath of God. In fact, the word love, you might want to know, doesn’t appear in the Roman epistle until the fifth chapter..."

"...How can people under­stand anything about love if they don’t understand God’s hate? How can they understand anything about His grace if they don’t know about His law? How can they understand forgiveness if they don’t understand the penalty of sin. Men cannot understand. They cannot seek grace and salvation unless they are affected with the dread of the wrath of God that is upon them. Unless men sense they are in grave danger there’s no pressure applied to them to change..."

"...Now, sometimes when you talk about God being a God of wrath, certain people get disturbed. And they don’t understand how God can be a God of anger and God can be a God of wrath and God can be a God of fury, a God of terror. But that’s because they don’t understand God..."

"...And may I add that it is not to say that God doesn’t love, but it is to say that you’ll never understand how great His love is unless you know how great His hate is. I mean, if you understand that God hates sin so profoundly then you will find it all the more amazing that He can love sinners..."

"...You say ‑ Well, that’s the Old Testament. That’s right, but God doesn’t change, the same thing is true in the New Testament as well. You see the wrath of God. In John chapter 3, John ‑ that wonderful gospel written by a man of love, that gospel that presents the Lord Jesus Christ in all His wonder and majesty and beauty..."He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life; and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life but the wrath of God abides on him.” It is not well with people who do not know Christ. It is not well with them. The wrath of God abides on them..."

"...God is a God of wrath, people. He’s a God of anger. Now does that sound like a poor choice of starting points for the gospel? Think about it. The bad news has to come before the good news, doesn’t it? It’s kind of like going to the doctor...and having the doctor say to you ‑ I have bad news; you have a fatal illness that has killed many people. But, I have good news, a cure has been found and I have it right here. See the good news means nothing without the bad news. Right? You have to diagnose the disease before the cure means anything. The bad news is ‑ God hates. The good news is ‑ God loves, but you have to start with His hate. First the diagnosis then the cure...."

[JESUS' WRATH]
"...Jesus in John 2 cleansing the temple, made a whip and just started whipping people all out of the temple. I mean, that’s a very dramatic scene. Do you want to know something? That was His first public act in Jerusalem. That is not the way you start a crusade. You don’t go into the religious places, take a whip and start flagellating everybody and overturning tables and crying about their sin, you’ll never get a crowd that way. You’ve got to send the advance committee, make it sound like harps and flowers. Jesus was furious because God was being dishonored. There was dishonesty there, there was cheating and lying and extortion and desecration..."

[WRATH]
"...I might just add here the word is orgee and it is a settled indignation not a momentary fury, God doesn’t blow His cork, God doesn’t just fly off the handle. It is a settled hatred by one who could never be good and loving unless He totally hated evil. The two are inseparable, you have both or neither..."

[GOES ON TO TALK ABOUT]
"...quality of wrath, the time of wrath, the source of wrath, the nature of wrath, the extent of wrath and now the cause of wrath..."

Romans 1:20-22

WE KNOW

Paul says there is "no excuse". God is in evidence for every person:

"..have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse..."

FROM WHAT HAS BEEN MADE
People have posted about the realizing God through Creation - and rightly so. However, I want to explore not the physical world, but man - made by God as his ultimate Creation.

Before time began, the Trinity existed - it existed in Love, Relationship, had intelligence, communication, creativity, knowledge, joy, etc.

Roslyn mentioned in a post - "...we keep attributing onto Him human qualities.."

In response I would flip that - As humans we are gifted with many of God's qualities (attributes) - made in his image.

EXAMPLE: LOVE AND RELATIONSHIP
Most humans have, if not their greatest desire, a great desire to be loved, love someone, be in relationships, to be social, to share feelings, etc. Of course these desires are stronger in some than others - but nonetheless they exist. Some may have hardened their hearts over the years, and have rejected these desires - but they had them at one time - I defy anyone to deal with children and not see the desire for Love and Relationship in great evidence.

Science will never be able to point to a brain cell, a gland, an organ, etc. to pinpoint where the desire comes from for Love and Relationship.

As a Christian I believe it is a gift from God. The Trinity has it - always had it - and being made in God's image we also have these desires.

Would a God who instilled in us the desire for Love and Relationship - not provide us a means to fulfill those desires on the highest level (with God)?

That is why I believe that since "the fall" and man turning from God - a rejection of that relationship - God's Plan has been all about restoring the relationship with God.

It is interesting that this explanation cannot be ascribed to other religions.

Only in Christianity does God share with us what he has always had - how more intimate and personal can it get?
======================================================
Saw this just today - a commentary on a recent published "study" - the increasing loneliness of Americans. Goes to the point of desire for Love and relationship.

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=15987
======================================================
DISCLAIMER: WE KNOW

I am not talking about the mentally impaired or the person in isolated places.

I believe that God will do with people according to their abilities and in isolated jungles, islands, tundras, etc. with what they do know. He will be fair and just.

However, in civilized countries - there is no excuse. It is not that people do not know of God - they know and reject HIM. When they reject God:

Rom1:21b-22
"..their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools."

This way - people get to do what they want.

I Chronicles 15-16:36

Luke 16 10 “He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much: and he that is unjust in the least is unjust also in much.” This verse came to mine every time I read Obed-edom’s name in this passage. He is mentioned four times in regard to being a gatekeeper in the tabernacle (15:18); a musician, a harp player) (15:21); and his home was where the Ark was kept for three months (15:25) while David tried to figure out how to get the Ark into the city without someone dropping dead.

After suffering the consequence of chosen ignorance, not actively consulting and reading the Laws of Moses, which would have told him how to move the Ark the right way, he does the right thing and gets the “411” on how to handle properly, God. (Well the God in the box, the home He had chosen to stay in for the sake of Israel)

David’s wife’s, Saul’s daughter, sneer at David, she must have been embarrassed, demonstrates to me that people have shown and will continue to show contempt for those who are in heartfelt worship. Like David, we must pay them no mind, but I don’t know if we can get away with locking them up.

In his Psalm, David lets us know that seeking God requires constancy and persistence (16:11), just like Jesus would latter tell us to do by asking, seeking and knocking.

Romans 1:18-32

This thing with God allowing us to have what we want (24 So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired) is the same thing He did with Israel when she asked for a king. He, God, gave them a man named Saul whose name in Hebrew is a play on the Hebrew word for desire.

I Sam 12:
12 "But when you saw that Nahash king of the Ammonites was moving against you, you said to me, 'No, we want a king to rule over us'-even though the LORD your God was your king. 13 Now here is the king you have chosen, the one you asked for; see, the LORD has set a king over you.

God is still in the business of giving people what they want even if what they want is hell.

Psalm 10:1-15
WOW!
4 These wicked people are too proud to seek God.
They seem to think that God is dead.

5 Yet they succeed in everything they do.
They do not see your punishment awaiting them.

Not only are these two verses powerful, they let us know that the wicked will seemingly appear to succeed; however there is something coming toward them on the road they don’t see, punishment. Just because the wicked or the righteous do not see evil, being thwarted by God does not mean the road is clear of their just dessert, we like they don’t see everything.

Proverbs 19:6-7

The kind of friends spoken about in these two verses, I don’t need nor do I want.

I Chronicles 15 (NKJV)
11
And David called for Zadok and Abiathar the priests, and for the Levites:…
12
He said to them, “You are the heads of the fathers’ houses of the Levites; SANCTIFY YOURSELVES, you and your brethren, that you may bring up the ark of the LORD God of Israel to the place I have prepared for it.
13
For because you did not do it the first time, the LORD our God broke out against us, because we did not consult Him about the proper order.”

NOTE:
SANCTIFY YOURSELVES. The Hebrew word for “sanctify” is the word Qadash (pronounced: kaw-dash).

Its meaning is: to consecrate, sanctify, prepare, dedicate, be hallowed, be holy, be sanctified, be separate

IN OUR LIVES, we are literally carrying around the Presence of the Lord Jesus.

2 Corinthians 4 (NKJV)
6
For it is the God who commanded light to shine out of darkness, who has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7
But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us.
11
For we who live are always delivered to death for Jesus’ sake, that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh.
~~~

I really need to meditate on this in order to COME TO REALLY KNOW THAT I KNOW that this is fully true. Then, I can allow the full impact of this to fully change all of me—from the inside out.

2 Corinthians 3 (NKJV)
17
Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18
But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.
~~~

Romans 1 (J B Phillips New Testament)
The righteousness of God and the sin of man

chapter 1
18
Now the holy anger of God is disclosed from Heaven against the godlessness and evil of those men who render truth dumb and inoperative by their wickedness.
19
It is not that they do not know the truth about God; indeed he has made it quite plain to them.
20
For since the beginning of the world the invisible attributes of God, e.g. his eternal power and divinity, have been plainly discernible through things which he has made and which are commonly seen and known, thus leaving these men without a rag of excuse.
21
They knew all the time that there is a God, yet they refused to acknowledge him as such, or to thank him for what he is or does. Thus they became fatuous in their argumentations, and plunged their silly minds still further into the dark.

NOTE:
The wrath of God. How does fit in with the Love of God?

I think of one verse from David’s song of praise from I Chronicles 16 (NKJV):
27
Honor and majesty are before Him; strength and gladness are in His place.

God is glorious—this is His natural Presence. The Father is known as the “Father of glory” (Ephesians 1:18).

According to Hebrews 1:3 (Amplified), look at Who the Lord Jesus is:

"He is the sole expression of the glory of God [the Light-being, the out-raying or radiance of the divine]"

God is Glorious, and God is Love. Thus, His Love—by nature—is glorious, full of honor and majesty. God’s Presence—by His very nature—will break out against sin.

THANK GOD FOR JESUS CHRIST! He took on a real human body to take on our sins—and the punishment for our sins—in His real human body. Then, He deposited those sins in hell, and was raised bodily—demonstrated to be the Son of God when He raised from death.

I thoroughly enjoy how the Perfect Man—our representative—did for you and I while He was on earth, as in Romans 8:3 (Amplified):

"For God has done what the Law could not do, [its power] being weakened by the flesh [the entire nature of man without the Holy Spirit]. SENDING HIS OWN SON IN THE GUISE OF SINFUL FLESH AND AS AN OFFERING FOR SIN, [GOD] CONDEMNED SIN IN THE FLESH [SUBDUED, OVERCAME, DEPRIVED IT OF ITS POWER OVER ALL WHO ACCEPT THAT SACRIFICE]"

Notice that the Father God sent His Son “in the guise [or disguise] of sinful flesh”. He was truly human, but was not born with a human body infected with sin.

In fact, He was more truly human than we are as man was never inherently created to be sinful or to have a human body infected with sin.

Then, as the Son of God and as a real man—facing real temptations to their fullest degree (and NOT GIVING IN)—the Lord Jesus:

* SUBDUED sin
* OVERCAME sin

As such, the Lord Jesus Deprived sin of its power over all who accept His Great Sacrifice.
ISN’T THAT GREAT?!?
~~~

The next question that comes to my mind is this: Is God’s wrath too harsh or unfair?

Many, many people confuse the Love of God with complete acceptance of all we think and do. I hear people all the time say something like this: "Because God is love, He will not judge me or what I do. All ways lead to God. He accepts me."
~~~

Yet, the Holy Spirit says this in I Corinthians 13:6 (NKJV):

"[LOVE] does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth"

Yes, it is true: God will not force Himself upon us, though He has every right to.

His Love even allows us to have our choice—even if it means that we are walking towards death.

Yet, God’s Love is fierce—because God loved us so much that He gave His only Son to die in our place for our sins.

GOD’S WRATH DEFINED: God will give us over to the desires of our hearts so that we can have what we believe we so ‘desperately’ want - as in the verses below:

Romans 1 (NKJV)
24
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,
25
who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Then, as we begin to feel the effects of the pain and disappointment of our sin, He is always speaking—“COME TO JESUS, Who alone can forgive and cleanse!”

Vance

I have found that if I begin each morning, even before I get out of bed, to thank God for giving me another day,another chance to live in such a way that others will want what I have. I rise and shine rather than rise and whine! I think the reason others do not run to God side is because there are conditions attached to being a friend of God. We must surrender our hearts, mind, bodies, and spirit, leave behind life as we know it and follow Jesus, and learn to trust daily, that God knows what is in our best interest, and what is best for us to do, to have, and to experience. We don't want to have to learn to increase our faith or mature. We want self gratification now! God gives us every good thing, the problem with mankind is that we don't understand what every good thing is or how it looks according to God's standards. It is my hope and my desire to purpose each and every day to live in such a way that no one has to wonder or guess who God is, they will see Jesus in me.

"Worship the Lord in the beauty of holiness...." It's counter-culture to see holiness as beautiful - the way God does.

My daughter Vicky loves the song, "Change my heart O God, make it ever new, change my heart O God, may I be like You." That's what I pray, as I read the way God sees things, and I realize that my perspective doesn't always line up with His.

My pastor was saying it could soon be a crime to read Romans 1 in a church, because it speaks against homosexuality. He's the founder of the Calvary Chapels (Pastor Chuck Smith) and they are putting pressure on him to not read it, but he of course would prefer jail then to not spread God's word. It could soon be considered a hate crime to preach it! Unbelievable. I certainly dont want to be one to mess with God! We cannot pick and chose what we want out of the bible. I used to try...i did not like the fact in romans and other places, it speaks about ppl not obeying/honoring their parents. doesnt matter if i liked it or not, doesnt change truth. God brought me around eventually, it was His grace and mercy, but thats the point. We need to be aligned to God's will and ways, not vice vs! God help us!

haha. i was listening to the 1 Chron. readings via the audio version. Its pretty funny hearing him read all those names! lol.

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